Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses

Insight #1 | Insight #2 | Insight #3 | Full Webinar Video
Large construction losses typically result from serious incidents that can endanger lives and bring major financial and reputational risks to companies. The good news is that technology can help provide effective ways to avoid injuries, accidents and damage to vehicles and equipment. By carefully assessing, selecting and implementing smart solutions, construction companies can enhance risk management and elevate safety standards.
Unlock expert insights on preventing large construction claim losses
The construction world is fast-paced and ever-changing. That’s why having a clear understanding of potential risks and innovative solutions is crucial for contractors, as highlighted in these key insights from our Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses webinar.
Insight #1
Top 3 Types of Large Construction Losses
Large losses in the construction industry typically result from catastrophic events and safety failures. These not only disrupt the project but can result in injuries and fatalities while impacting adjacent properties and infrastructure.
Thad Doyle, AVP of Construction Claim at Travelers, describes the main types of large construction losses, which may result from collapses, injuries, fatalities, workers compensation claims, structural defects and more.
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo: Travelers. Text: Top 3 Types of Large Construction Losses. Next slide. Construction Large Loss. Graphic: a hard hat in a circle with lines that go to a column on four bars on the right: Large loss categories, Work zone injuries, Financial impact, Mental health. Thad Doyle, AVP, Construction Claims, Travelers. Text: Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses. Thad Doyle appears in a picture-in-picture in the upper right corner.
(SPEECH)
THAD DOYLE: When I think about large losses for the construction industry, I think it's pretty easy to think of the catastrophic events that may take place. So in these circumstances, it could be a building failure or collapse. We could have a large explosion or a fire that takes place at a project. And we can have projects that are even impacted by weather, leading to some type of large failure.
And when these events happen, it's not uncommon that you could have extensive and numerous bodily injury cases. You can have fatalities. There's going to be impacts to the project itself, damage to the project itself. And it could impact adjacent properties, maybe a whole city block, or a major piece of infrastructure.
And the second category I think about is then those severe injuries or accidents that take place to your employees on a job site. These are your workers compensation claims, and I'll delve into that a little bit more in a minute. But when that occurs, those injuries can be substantial. And what occurs to folks earlier in career with substantial medical injuries and lifetime care needs, those claims can go up substantially.
And then the third category I want to talk about, which may be a little unexpected, is I think about projects that are in the course of construction, nearing completion, maybe almost quite done and turned over, and there's some type of problem with the project. It could be a design issue. It could be a structural issue. There could be some functionality problems during startup and testing. And when those happen during the middle of a job, there can be impacts.
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo and text: Travelers. Discover more at travelers dot com slash construction. Copyright The Travelers Indemnity Company. All rights reserved. Travelers and the Travelers Umbrella logo are registered trademarks of the Travelers Indemnity Company in the U.S. and other countries.
Insight #2
AI in Construction
AI plays a significant role in technology’s future and is increasingly used to help improve safety in the construction industry.
Matt Abeles, VP of Construction Technology and Innovation at Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC), discusses how AI is the hottest topic in construction tech for ABC. He also shares specific examples of AI usage, including autonomous equipment.
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo: Travelers. Text: AI in Construction. Mitigating Risks. Digitize tracking, Drones, Artificial Intelligence (AI), Hardware and software. Smart Solutions for large construction losses. Matt Abeles, VP Construction Technology and Innovation, Associated Builders and Contractors.
(SPEECH)
MATT ABELES: Artificial intelligence, this is the No. 1 topic talked about when it comes to construction technology at ABC. It's the top thing I constantly talk about.
(DESCRIPTION)
A man operates a drone that hovers above a partially constructed building.
(SPEECH)
When you look at the future of technology, AI is going to play a role. So for one example, you've got companies out there that are going to make large pieces of equipment autonomous. So that means that autonomous equipment allows for max productivity.
Autonomous equipment also goes to places that might be unsafe. Think about the mining industry. There's a lot of great safety opportunities in AI and large equipment. The other thing, too, when you think about large equipment and just the labor force as a whole, the construction labor force is -- according to our numbers, there's over half a million people that we need just to finish the work over the next 12 months in construction in the United States. So some of this technology will help.
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo: Travelers. Text: Discover more at Travelers dot com slash construction. Copyright the Travelers Indemnity Company, all rights reserved. Travelers and the Travelers Umbrella logo are registered trademarks of the Travelers Indemnity Company in the U.S. and other countries.
Insight #3
Telematics, Equipment Tracking and Fleet Management
Telematics and AI in vehicles, digitized tracking and fleet management software can help mitigate risks on construction job sites.
Matt Abeles shows how some contractors are using autonomous equipment and various technologies for tracking equipment location and monitoring wear and tear.
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo: Travelers. Text: Telematics, Equipment Tracking and Fleet Management. Next slide. Text: Mitigating Risks. Telematics, Artificial intelligence (AI). Matt Abeles, VP, Construction Technology and Innovation, Associated Builders and Contractors. Text: Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses. Photo: a center line on a road. Matt Abeles appears in a picture-in-picture in the upper right corner.
(SPEECH)
MATT ABELES: Telematics and just tracking and IoT technology is one of the most, I would say, fast-trending technologies out there. I mean, material tracking and tool tracking are coupled with it, but tracking large equipment, one of the most used technologies, as I mentioned, when it comes to managing fleet and to track large equipment. So understanding where your equipment is, making sure that your equipment is in a safe area within the job site, is really important.
The other thing with telematics is it's making sure that the wear and tear on the equipment is being tracked. And you'll see this with a lot of the major large-equipment companies like Caterpillar or John Deere. This is the type of technology that is embedded in there. And artificial intelligence is being added to large equipment and fleet monitoring systems to help get real-time data on all of those things.
So the vehicles are going to be safer. And even for old large equipment, I mentioned before that artificial intelligence is going to allow large equipment to drive autonomously. That applies to not just new large equipment. That applies to large equipment that may be 20 years old.
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo and text: Travelers. Discover more at travelers dot com slash construction. Copyright The Travelers Indemnity Company. All rights reserved. Travelers and the Travelers Umbrella logo are registered trademarks of the Travelers Indemnity Company in the U.S. and other countries.
Watch the full replay: Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses
Watch the full webinar replay to explore this topic in-depth. Learn from our expert panel as they discuss how new technology can help mitigate large claim losses on construction job sites and help contractors protect their workers and assets.
Panel members
Moderator
Cori MacCallum
AVP, Construction Energy & Marine, Travelers
Speakers
Thad Doyle
AVP, Construction Claim, Travelers
Matt Abeles
VP, Construction Technology and Innovation, Associated Builders and Contractors
Mark Nowakowski
AVP, Risk Control, Travelers
Navigate to these timestamps in the full webinar below:
- Types of large construction losses (3:38)
- Common job site injuries and financial impacts (5:18)
- AI and autonomous construction equipment (9:53)
- Auto work zone injury risks and how to mitigate (15:55)
- How equipment tracking and fleet monitoring systems can improve safety (18:17)
- Injury risks and losses caused by heavy equipment (22:10)
- Losses due to construction defects (29:45)
- Project management software’s effect on construction performance (33:18)
- Cyberattack threats to the construction industry (38:33)
(DESCRIPTION)
Logo, Travelers. A red umbrella. Text: Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses
(DESCRIPTION)
Text: Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses. Cori MacCallum appears on a video call at the top right-hand corner of a slideshow.
(SPEECH)
CORI MACCALLUM: Welcome, everyone. On behalf of Travelers, thank you for joining us today to explore Smart Solutions for Large Construction Losses. My name is Cori MacCallum, Business Strategy for Construction, Energy, and Marine at Travelers. And I'm excited that you could join us as we look at the intersection of safety, technology and construction risk management.
Large construction losses can result from serious incidents that can endanger lives and bring major financial and reputational risks to companies. Contractors can be devastated by major workplace injuries, auto accidents, equipment losses and construction defects. However, contractors are learning about technology and how it can help mitigate these risks.
We'll cover a range of advancements, including job site safety technology, driver monitoring systems, AI, drones and more. By carefully assessing, selecting and implementing smart solutions, construction companies can enhance risk management, uphold safety standards and foster a culture of responsibility and well-being.
(DESCRIPTION)
Text: This material does not amend, or otherwise affect, the provisions or coverages of any insurance policy or bond issued by Travelers. It is not a representation that coverage does or does not exist for any particular claim or loss under any such policy or bond. Coverage depends on the facts and circumstances involved in the claim or loss, all applicable policy or bond provisions, and any applicable law. Availability of coverage referenced in this material can depend on underwriting qualifications and state regulations. The information provided in this material is intended as informational and is not intended as, nor does it constitute, legal or professional advice or an endorsement or testimonial by Travelers for a particular product, service or company. Travelers does not warrant that adherence to, or compliance with, any recommendations testimonials, best practices or guidelines will result in a particular outcome. In no event will Travelers, or any of its subsidiaries or affiliates, be liable in tort or in contract to anyone who has access to or uses this information for any purpose. Unless otherwise specified, no sponsorship, affiliation or endorsement relationship exists as between Travelers and any of the entities referenced in this presentation. Copyright 2024, The Travelers Indemnity Company. All rights reserved. Travelers and the Travelers Umbrella logo are registered trademarks of The Travelers Indemnity Company in the U.S. and other countries. All other registered trademarks are the property of their respective owners.
(SPEECH)
Before we move into the webinar, I want to take a minute to say, the information provided in this material is intended as informational and does not amend coverage or constitute legal advice. Unless otherwise specified, no sponsorship, affiliation or endorsement relationship exists between Travelers and any of the entities referenced in this presentation.
Please note that we are recording today's presentation, and a replay of this webinar will be sent via email. Throughout the moderated discussion, if you have questions for our panelists, please post them into the Q&A and we'll do our best to answer as many as we can at the end.
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Our Panel. Pictures of four people, with names and titles. Text: Moderator, Cori MacCallum, Assistant Vice President, Construction, Energy, and Marine at Travelers. Panelist, Matt Abeles, Vice President, Construction, Technology, and Innovation at ABC. Panelist, Thad Doyle, Assistant Vice President, Construction Claims at Travelers. Panelist, Mark Nowakowski, Assistant Vice President, Risk Control at Travelers.
(SPEECH)
Now, let's meet our panel of construction technology insurance claim and risk management experts. Matt Abeles is Vice President of Construction Technology and Innovation for ABC National. In his role, he's responsible for helping ABC's members innovate, be safer, more profitable, and win work through technology.
Thad Doyle is AVP of Construction Claims at Travelers, with responsibilities over our specialized claims organizations, including construction, energy and more. Thad is also a member of the team that evaluates new vendors and products for the Travelers Innovation Network. Mark Nowakowski is AVP of risk control with responsibilities covering construction, energy and marine, and commercial risk consultants. Mark is also a member of the team that evaluates new vendors and products for the Travelers Innovation Network.
By the end of our time together, you'll hear from our panelists their perspective on large loss in construction , how innovative solutions can help to safeguard workers, equipment vehicles, finances and reputation, how the current labor shortage has increased the risk of large losses, the types of technology out there that can help mitigate risk. And finally, we'll talk about emerging risk and how technology may help.
Thank you, Matt, Thad and Mark, for being here. Thad, I'd like to start with you. What are the most prevalent types of injuries on construction sites that lead to large losses?
(DESCRIPTION)
Thad Doyle appears on the video call. Slide, Construction Large Loss. A list connected to a graphic of a hard hat. Text: Large loss categories. Work zone injuries. Financial impact. Mental health.
(SPEECH)
THAD DOYLE: So thank you, Cori. And also, thank you for hosting our panel today. So I'm going to talk about probably three categories of large losses and then go to some of these other additional topics thereafter. So when I think about large losses for the construction industry, I think it's pretty easy to think of the catastrophic events that may take place.
So in these circumstances, it could be a building failure or collapse. We could have a large explosion or a fire that takes place at a project. And we can have projects that are even impacted by weather, leading to some type of large failure .
And when these events happen, it's not uncommon that you could have extensive, numerous bodily injury cases. You can have fatalities. There's going to be impacts to the project itself, damage to the project itself. And it could impact adjacent properties, maybe a whole city block or major piece of infrastructure.
And the second category I think about is then those severe injuries or accidents that take place to your employees on a job site. These are your workers compensation claims. And I'll delve into that a little bit more in a minute. But when that occurs, those injuries can be substantial. And when it occurs to folks earlier in career with substantial medical injuries and lifetime care needs, those claims can go up substantially.
And then the third category I want to talk about, which may be a little unexpected, is I think about projects that are in the course of construction, nearing completion, maybe almost quite done and turned over, and there's some type of problem with the project. It could be a design issue. It could be a structural issue.
There could be some functionality problems during startup and testing. And when those happen during the middle of a job, there can be impacts. So payment can be withheld. Contractors could be replaced. Mechanics liens could get started. And in that situation, it could lead to payment problems, reputation with the customer and the impact to potentially bid on future work.
So let me jump into the work zone injuries a little bit more. So I think everybody in this audience is probably very familiar with the data that gets generated across the work comp industry when it talks about the causes of loss that happen in construction, the nature and injuries and damage types that occur to your employees. When I think about the largest loss in this category, I'm really thinking about your most severe injuries that have a lifetime impact that I mentioned earlier.
And by that, I'm talking about unfortunate amputations to employees, burns over substantial part of their body, potential head injuries and long-term cognitive defects from a traumatic brain injuries, for instance. But this can also happen from a simple back injury that leads to one surgery in a career and potentially additional fusions or surgeries down the road. When these happen on your job site to your employees, these claims can start in the millions of dollars and clearly escalate up into higher dollar amounts.
So to talk about the financial impact, which I just touched upon in the job site and work zone injuries comment, these types of losses will clearly lead to a substantial claim payment that could impact your policies, but could also lead to other financial impacts, such as fines and penalties by a regulatory agent, delaying completion and payment, as I mentioned before, and also impacting that reputational risk and future work and your brand and reputation with owners and other contractors.
And the last thing I want to mention, which may be a little bit surprise for this category and feel it's an important topic to touch upon, is mental health. It's well documented and understood that the substance abuse in the construction industry exceeds other industries. And I think it's also well documented that this abuse can lead to, contribute or exacerbate to mental health issues within your staff.
So when a worker shows up and is fatigued for a lack of sleep, is undergoing some type of stress or anxiety, unfortunately, maybe self-medicating, those are going to lead to the risks and opportunities for accidents and injuries. And so I would just encourage folks to think about a mental health program as a key supplement to the overall health and safety program. And you may see or hear a few comments from that on Matt and Mark as we go forward.
CORI MACCALLUM: OK, Matt, so how are you seeing contractors using technology to mitigate these injury risks?
(DESCRIPTION)
Matt Abeles appears on the video call. Slide, Mitigating Risks. A picture of a person holding a device resembling a handheld video console, consisting of joysticks, buttons and a screen displaying a wooden structure. A bullet point list. Text: Digitize tracking. Drones. Artificial intelligence (AI). Hardware and software.
(SPEECH)
MATT ABELES: And thank you again, Cori, and the Travelers team for having me. So there's a few different ways. I'll start with the most used one, which is just digitizing incident tracking. So there are a lot of options available. And each client's needs are going to be a little bit different, but ultimately digitizing these processes with solutions that are tracking everything that is happening from a safety standpoint, like I said, tracking incidences, what types of incidences, and helping plan for the future.
You've got companies like safety-reports.com and Safesite as a couple of examples. But safety is an interesting category because there's not one or two clear leaders. There's a lot of different safety technology options out there.
And one of the things that I would really highlight is we are seeing a paradigm shift in contractors that are starting to digitize more processes. Even Dodge data came out with a report that said over 90% of workers expect to digitize their processes over the next couple of years.
Drones is another example. So if you just think about drones, drones go places that people can't, and meaning that drones can go places that might be a safety risk for people. So outside of the other obvious benefits from drones where you can get pictures, you can show progress tracking on an actual project. You have just safety and efficiency as a real top use for drones.
And one of the things that's going to be interesting, though, in the next few years is you have a company, DJI, who is the biggest drone provider in construction. And they are a Chinese-owned company that there's a lot of data that they take that is being looked into. And DJI may or may not be around in the next five years. Not a decision for us to make, but something that is going through that process.
Artificial intelligence -- this is the No. 1 topic talked about when it comes to construction technology at ABC. It's the top thing I constantly talk about. And when you look at the future of technology, AI is going to play a role.
So for one example, you've got companies out there that are going to make large pieces of equipment autonomous. So that means that autonomous equipment does not take bathroom breaks. Autonomous equipment allows for max productivity. Autonomous equipment also goes to places that might be unsafe. Think about the mining industry. There's a lot of great safety opportunities in AI and large equipment.
The other thing, too, is when you think about large equipment and just the labor force as a whole, the construction labor force is, according to our numbers, there's over half a million people that we need just to finish the work over the next 12 months in construction in the United States. So some of this technology will help combat that.
And then one of the other uses of artificial intelligence for safety is tracking PPE gear. So you have companies like alwaysAI, you have companies like New Metrics where they can instantly, with video, tell you if everyone has the right PPE gear on in an instant. And that's really important because when we look at safety, I think the narrative has changed where all these accidents don't happen. All these accidents can be preventable, and technology can help us get there.
Telematics is being used in multiple ways. One of the things that I see with telematics is the fact that we can track all of our equipment, how much it is being used. And one of the things that's happening with large equipment is making sure that when workers start using these large pieces of equipment, that they have substantial sleep, that they are OK to use this equipment and operate this equipment.
And then immersive reality -- immersive reality, now, this is not something you'll see on most job sites. But when it comes to safety, you can train for safety in immersive reality in a safer environment. You can help upskill more people.
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Immersive Reality. A picture of a woman wearing a hard hat and a safety vest and pointing into the air while looking up. A man standing beside her wears virtual reality goggles while looking in the direction she points.
(SPEECH)
And when you look at the future of upskilling our workforce, that's where immersive reality is really being used. Even Meta highlights the fact that immersive reality, it's not just for gamers. We're upskilling many industries. And construction is a big part of that. So we're upskilling on all the different trades within construction.
And then on top of it, I think the last thing I'll mention here is I think we could do a better job of marketing the fact that construction is a very innovative industry. And immersive reality is just one of many technologies being used. But when we tried to attract a future workforce into construction, immersive reality is one of those tools we should really be showing them, because that's making our jobs safer. And it's just one of those tools that's going to help make us more efficient and upskill and train more people in a more innovative way.
So there's just a lot of software being out there, more software than hardware. I would estimate there are somewhere between 4,000 and 5,000 construction technology solutions out there. And one of the most important things is to make sure that whatever technology you are planning to use, just make sure that you have a plan to implement it properly, and that you have a group of people who are going to use that technology. You don't want to buy technology and have it sit on the shelf. So yeah, Cori, I'll pass it back to you.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, Mark, moving over to you. From a risk control perspective, you're on job sites often. What are your thoughts on how technology can help mitigate workplace injuries?
(DESCRIPTION)
Mark Nowakowski appears on the video call.
(SPEECH)
MARK NOWAKOWSKI: Yeah. Thanks, Cori. So we are seeing companies utilize immersive reality to support equipment and crane training for operators so the employees can learn in a safe environment without risk of injury to others or damaging equipment. When they do get to the field, the goal is to have that operator at a more advanced stage of learning how to operate that equipment in a safe manner.
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Education and Training. A picture of a man speaking to a group of people wearing hard hats and safety vests.
(SPEECH)
Other customers are leveraging technology to support orientation of new employees on their projects. So prior to them arriving on the job site, they might have them look at a video, answer some questions that are related to the subjects in the video. When they get to the project, it's a much more focused and efficient orientation for that worker, really key topics on the actual project versus some of the more broad topics that they emailed them earlier.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, so Thad, what types of major auto-related losses and risks should construction companies be vigilant about avoiding?
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Auto Exposures. A list connected to a graphic of a car. Text: Work zone accidents. Diligent fleet management.
(SPEECH)
THAD DOYLE: So I think about auto exposures in two different areas. So the first one is going to be actually auto accidents that take place in a work zone. So these are not your employee driving vehicles. But this is the public. This is commerce taking place on a vehicle that is either driving into, through or coming out of a work zone.
And that would be pretty common for the highway, street, road contractors. But that could happen to utility contractors. It can happen to electricians doing street lighting or traffic signal work. And I'll get more into that in a minute.
The other category is obviously the ones we probably would all expect and think of. And these are the auto accidents where it's your own employees driving their vehicles. It's to and from job sites. It's to and from a yard or the office. It's within job zones, potentially going in and out of traffic. So I'm going to talk about those two categories a little bit.
When I think about the work zone exposures, so street road construction is taking place at such a large volume these days. It's in tight spaces. So it could be a rural environment. It could be an urban setting. There's going to be traffic controls and tapering. It's happening outside, subject to weather. It's often at night.
So when you adjust people's traffic pattern and people are driving erratically, too fast for conditions, they're not paying attention, they're distracted, they're potentially intoxicated, that's just going to increase those opportunities for those accidents. And when they take place around some construction activities, it's not uncommon at all for there to be either the blame on the construction activities or the construction activities or the lack of safety protocols contributed to those losses.
So we see a significant amount of claim volume, and severity comes through in that claim type. And just to comment on what helps in that situation, and I'm sure we'll get into more conversation, although some of those technologies have already been mentioned. And this is going to be a theme for me as I talk throughout the day, Cori.
So meticulous documentation, having the right paperwork -- don't rely on verbal approvals or inspections. Even if you can get an email, that's going to help. And I would say, digital media, cameras and video, a picture's worth a thousand words are going to help you when those claim situations take place.
So now, turning to the auto accidents of your own people with your own vehicles. So everybody in this audience is well aware of the cost of insurance and how it's going up to deal with these exposures. I really think the best way of managing this is a prevention program, so anything from when you're bringing employees into the organization, checking MVRs, training and an effective fleet management program. And I know you'll hear a little bit more from Mark and Matt on that category.
It's really just that ounce of prevention. And keep in mind that a significant motor vehicle accident to one of your own employees is not only potentially setting you up for a large liability claim and an umbrella exposure, but some of our biggest work comp injuries also come from those same motor vehicle accidents. So I would say, Cori, talking about all those exposures, those are the two categories. And unfortunately, we see them quite a bit, and they can be substantial.
CORI MACCALLUM: OK, so Matt, what technologies are available to enhance driver safety and reduce accidents on highways, like the ones Thad just mentioned?
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Mitigating Risks. A picture of an empty two-lane blacktop road, and a bullet point list. Text: Telematics. Artificial Intelligence (AI).
(SPEECH)
MATT ABELES: So telematics and just tracking and IoT technology is one of the most, I would say, fast-trending technologies out there. I mean, material tracking and tool tracking are a couple of it. But tracking large equipment, one of the most used technologies, as I mentioned, when it comes to managing fleet and to track large equipment, so understanding where your equipment is, making sure that your equipment is in a safe area within the job site is really important.
The other thing with telematics is it's making sure that the wear and tear on the equipment is being tracked. And you'll see this with a lot of the major large equipment companies like Caterpillar or John Deere. This is the type of technology that is embedded in there.
And artificial intelligence is being added to large equipment and fleet monitoring systems to help get real-time data on all of those things. So the vehicles are going to be safer. And even for old large equipment, I mentioned before that artificial intelligence is going to allow large equipment to drive autonomously. That applies to not just new large equipment. That applies to large equipment that may be 20 years old. The technology can apply to many of those.
So those are the main areas I see this happening. And you're going to see more and more of this technology coming, because when you think about a job site and where the investments are, after labor, your biggest investment is in large equipment. And making sure that that equipment is helping people be safer, more productive is more important than ever.
CORI MACCALLUM: Mark, from a risk control perspective, how do you see the opportunity for technology to help mitigate risks on the road?
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Monitoring. A picture of a person wearing a hard hat and a safety vest looking at computer screens.
(SPEECH)
MARK NOWAKOWSKI: Thanks, Cori. So I mean, from the driver's side, we do have customers using telematics to monitor drivers and, most importantly, coach these drivers as appropriate. Companies using these forward-facing cameras have the potential to better understand an accident cause and gather supporting information for accident investigation efforts. And street and road customers are also using cameras to monitor work zone setups, so the off-hours activity and how the traveling public is responding to the traffic control patterns that they've set up.
CORI MACCALLUM: So let's shift over to equipment. What are the significant types of losses and dangers associated with crane and heavy equipment operations? Thad, that's for you.
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Crane and Heavy Equipment Exposure. A list connected to a graphic of a crane. Text: Cranes. Losses caused by heavy equipment. Losses to heavy equipment.
(SPEECH)
THAD DOYLE: Yeah. Thanks, Cori. And I appreciate -- I think Matt and Mark have touched upon this some. But let me just talk about the losses just to emphasize the significance. So when I think about cranes listed here first, I think we can all imagine and remember some headlines where we see a substantial crane loss.
So whether or not you had a tower crane or a large mobile crane that came down and collapsed and caused havoc, those claims can be very large and catastrophic, kind of the description I mentioned earlier. And so that can lead to substantial injuries, property damage, delays, et cetera.
And the other thing, too, is the cranes are very expensive themselves and then sometimes high demand. So this is equipment that's lifting either heavy or important equipment or materials on a job. They're lifting it at heights. They're lifting it outside subject to weather. So there's a lot of things to take into account as you try to manage your claim risks, et cetera. And then just a simple mobile crane tipping over into itself, not impacting the project or anybody, can be a very expensive loss and hard to replace.
And I want to talk a little bit about the losses actually caused by the heavy equipment. And I think Matt touched upon this about monitoring and keeping people safe while they're operating heavy equipment. We continue to see, all too often, people in the wrong place at the wrong time, being hit by heavy equipment on job sites.
And this obviously can happen a lot to your employees. And sometimes when it's your own employee, it could be contributed to by the lack of experience and training and supervision. These people just don't know better and don't know how active a job site can be. And they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, could be walking through a blind spot, et cetera.
But it's not only your employees that face this risk. We also, too, unfortunately, see impacts and injuries to inspectors, police officers, and sometimes the public getting into or too close to an active work zone. So a lot of risks and exposure as that heavy equipment is moving around a job site.
So anything you can do to keep people out of harm's way and in those top pinch points even includes your loading and unloading exposures when you're thinking about materials coming to and from a job site. So I think this is a very significant exposure that the industry faces. It leads to some of those large work comp claims I mentioned earlier. And I do think there's an opportunity for technology to help in this space as we move forward.
And the last thing to mention -- and again, Matt commented on this a little bit, but I'll just add to it -- the losses to the equipment themselves. This stuff is expensive. It's hard to replace. It's costly. If you have to rent, borrow, go out and buy one if you can even find it.
Some of our biggest losses will happen from potential weather events. We see wildfires impacting large concentrations of equipment or yards. You can have severe weather, for instance, bringing in a flood. That may impact a substantial collection of equipment or a yard. And then we're seeing more of and seems to be emerging trend is vandalism, crime, and theft. Again, because the equipment is expensive, keeping it safe and keeping it readily available for yourselves, for your work, is becoming more and more important these days.
CORI MACCALLUM: Matt, how can technology boost the safe operation of cranes and heavy equipment on construction sites?
(DESCRIPTION)
Slide, Mitigating Risks. A picture of people wearing hard hats and safety vests sitting in chairs and holding clipboards and pens. A bullet point list. Text: Crane Rigging Tech. I-o-T Tracking.
(SPEECH)
MATT ABELES: Well, there is some really interesting crane rigging technology that's out there right now. So for example, some of this technology, it holds loads very steady, mitigating wind and weather delays, which is a really big deal. And it's making sure that there isn't any twisting or just damaging kind of situations with what's going on.
And there's special technology, almost like drone -- that helps keep that in place. So some of the other benefits of this type of technology is keeping workers just out of danger zones and reducing the need for taglines. And some of the precision is just really impressive.
But there's more technology that's going to come out, just like some that's already out there, reducing crane-related injuries, which is a big deal, and keeping workers out of danger zones. But again, the spinning and the twisting, this technology stops that spinning and twisting, which causes a lot of injuries and problems. And the technology that's doing this is also helping improve efficiency and lift things faster.
The other side of this is IoT tracking. I mentioned this earlier. IoT tracking is a big deal when it comes to small scale and large scale. So when you think about how technology is boosting operations with equipment, small equipment, there's one key technology Milwaukee Tool has where you can track every piece of equipment on a job site.
You can make sure that equipment is being operated by the right person that is within the actual construction site, or you can actually tell if equipment is being stolen because of this type of IoT technology. And it's now to the point where you can see the wear and tear on some of these tools.
And the same thing applies to large equipment, just understanding -- and there are companies out there that help you understand, are you getting the maximum use out of all your equipment? Or do you have vital equipment? Because that's wasted money. And we're in an industry that can have really thin margins. That's really important and ensuring that, from a safety standpoint, that equipment is really just not causing any situations of safety.
So for example, artificial intelligence, one of the newer companies that's coming out is if someone gets too close to a large piece of equipment, that large piece of equipment will automatically stop if that worker is too close to it. And that's the type of stuff AI is helping do is just making sure that the safe operations of large equipment are happening on job sites. So just a couple of things I'd mentioned on that front.
CORI MACCALLUM: OK, thank you. Mark, what is Travelers seeing on the job site in terms of technology to help mitigate these heavy equipment risks?
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Slide, Proximity Tracking. A picture of a person wearing a toolbelt.
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MARK NOWAKOWSKI: Thanks, Cori. So in addition to what Thad and Matt just discussed, we've seen some customers leveraging solutions that aid our equipment operators by identifying people and objects in that equipment blind spot. So the solution can help alert the operator to the hazard through lights and audible warnings in the cab.
And in some cases, workers around the equipment have a wearable device that will let them know, through either a vibration or an audible tone, that they're in that danger zone in an effort to try to manage some of those struck-by hazards that we're seeing in the industry. I just wanted to add that the Travelers Construction Innovation Network has some good solutions that support tracking and monitoring of your fleet equipment as well as theft prevention, just to support some of the discussions we've been having.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, Thad, so back over to you. What are the key types of losses associated with construction defects? And how do they impact project outcomes?
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Slide, Property Damage Exposures. A list connected to a graphic resembling a broken wheel. Text: Property damage losses. Construction defect losses. Diligent documentation.
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THAD DOYLE: So thanks, Cori. So I'm going to talk about property damage exposures overall. We'll get into a couple of different areas there. So when I think about property damage claims for the construction industry that generates a lot of them, I think of more sudden events coming from the actual operations themselves -- and I'll give you more of that in a minute -- and then the ones that are more gradual over time.
So when I think about our more sudden events or events from the operations, so you can have vibration claims. And they could be as simple as heavy equipment or drilling operations next to a residence or two. That could lead to potential impacts to that structure. Or they could be broader than that, from maybe a blasting operation that has a broader impact. So that's a type of property damage claim that we see and is pretty common in this industry.
And then the other set of events, unfortunately, are we have a lot of fires and water losses caused by construction activities, whether it's heating, gas, electrical, or plumbing, fire sprinkler, or other tie-ins. Fire and water damage claims, nonweather-related, are a big driver of the property damage claims that we see. Then of course, sometimes there's the quick and immediate failure, whether it's a structural member or a column or something that causes the building to collapse. And these are typically happening during operations or, again, when a building's almost been completed and put to its use.
Now, the more gradual losses we typically define and consider are construction defect losses. These are problems with buildings after they've been done. So completed operations losses, they've been turned over to the owners for general use and occupation. But there's something wrong with the building. The building is not functioning as expected.
It may be having some structural issues. It may be having some other problems with it foundationally. And the most common types we see of these gradual claims over time leading to property damage, the foundations, the soil preparation, the slabs are a common one. And probably the most common one, as we see, is water intrusion, water and moisture getting into a building from a number of causes, whether it's mechanical-related, it's through penetrations, roof, exterior cladding, et cetera. So those are some of the most common.
And then what I'll say about these losses -- and they both have this in common -- is I often see they're caused by a potential combination of factors. So one could just be bad design or underdesigned leads to these types of claims. And that can include change orders, substitutions. You got supply issues, and you tried to change out a new material.
It could also be new or emerging products, ones that have not been used by contractors very often. They may not be up to speed on the application. It could be a complicated means and methods to install these products that you're not familiar with.
And then the third component that contributes to these types of losses is actually the quality workmanship itself. The labor shortage is still impacting the industry. If people are doing work and they don't have the experience and familiarity with it, they're not properly supervised or inspected, the poor workmanship and quality is going to play into the claim opportunities and lead to maybe some of these losses, like we've discussed. So that kind of quality can definitely exacerbate these claims.
So the financial impact of these claims will vary. So some can be smaller. A vibration claim to a small commercial building or residence could be of a certain size or type. But they could also be much more expensive than that.
If you have buildings that are put to use -- large commercial spaces, hospitals, apartments, condominiums, manufacturing facilities, warehouse facilities -- when those buildings are experiencing these problems and they need to be fixed, the repair and reacting to these losses is going to be very complex, because you're going to want to try and repair a building and get it back to its useful self by trying to minimize the potential business interruption and economic loss to its owner. So these types of losses can become very complex.
So now my last comment -- and Cori, this gets back to the theme I just mentioned earlier -- diligent documentation. So as your projects are progressing, anything you can do to keep as best record as possible in a place where you can find it. Construction defect losses may not rear their head for years and years after completion. And then anytime you have that documentation, keep it in a safe space.
And if you can enhance it with digital media, such as pictures, videos, and then all the checks and balances and sign-offs and approvals of substitution, when you have that documentation and these losses occur, it's just going to help us understand the mechanisms of the failures. It's going to help us understand better who actually contributed to the loss and be in a better place to make a repair and fix. That's to everybody's best benefit. So that's my spiel on property damage, Cori.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, thanks, Thad. My next question is, how can dynamic technologies minimize the risk of construction defects and ensure project quality? So Matt, let's start with you.
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Slide, Mitigating Risks. A picture of a person wearing safety goggles watching a video on a tablet. A bullet point list. Text: Project management. Building information modeling.
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MATT ABELES: Yeah. I think I would start right away with project management software. So ABC, we have what's called our Excellence in Construction awards. We award and recognize the top performing projects across the country. And these are projects of all sizes. Most of them are small and midsize projects that are under $20 million.
And when you look into award-winning projects of all sizes done by contractors of all sizes, project management technology is used on 93% of those projects. So we are seeing, without a doubt, project management technology is not only the most used technology amongst high-performing contractors, that there's been a paradigm shift that the big contractors are not the only ones using tech.
If you're a high-performing contractor, you're investing in tech. And project management software is the start of it because it's helping you understand all the different areas of your project. And that goes to change orders, understanding your labor force, timing in and timing out, all the pictures on a project, drawings. And project management tools, there are many out there.
Some of the big brands out there are names like Procore, which is used by contractors of all sizes, but mostly larger companies. When you look at the smaller and midsize contractors, you see companies like SmartBuild out there. And I'm not necessarily endorsing these companies, I'm just mentioning some of the well-known brands that are out there in the industry, companies like RedTeam, like Autodesk.
There's no lack of them, but it's a crowded space because there is a high demand for this type of technology. So I'd recommend for anybody not using that type of software to look into it to help mitigate that risk.
And then the other thing is when you look at BIM, which is Building Information Modeling, this used to be the only technology out there. But what building information modeling is doing is making sure that projects are reducing risk, they're being more efficient.
And there's a lot of technologies that are focused on BIM and making sure -- and looking into things like clash detection. But if you can minimize redundant work, then you are going to be a more profitable organization and construction company. And that starts with the investment in these types of technology.
So that would be my recommendation on just minimizing the risk of defects because the redundant work that can be done is going to cost you time, and it's going to cost you money. And these are some of those technologies that can help you with that.
CORI MACCALLUM: Mark, what are your thoughts from a risk control perspective?
MARK NOWAKOWSKI: Thanks, Cori. So in addition to some of the tools that Matt mentioned and Thad as well, we do see monitors in the field on job sites related to moisture, humidity to monitor project conditions, also, concrete curing, things like that that may contribute to future issues in the building, floor finishes, things like that.
Also, accidental water discharge on projects does need to be paid attention to. And we've got some solutions to manage it. The goal is to pay attention to off-hours, water flow, being able to have the sensors on the floor to recognize that there's water where it's not supposed to be, and also the ability to potentially shut that valve off remotely has been where our customers have found some recent success as well.
I know Thad had mentioned some of the vibration issues that we're seeing in the field.
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Slide, Travelers ZoneCheck (registered trademark). A graphic depicting a hand holding a phone displaying an app.
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I did want to mention the Travelers ZoneCheck tool that is available to Travelers customers. So this tool really helps to identify equipment-generated ground vibration risks and supports a sound preconstruction plan for your project.
So ZoneCheck provides that insight that contractors need to identify the risk of vibration damages, the potential claims and construction losses, and even project interruptions as well. So if you've never heard of it, definitely look into it. Reach out to anyone you know, your risk control folks, obviously, at Travelers, your underwriter, your claims folks. And we'll get you dialed in.
CORI MACCALLUM: So, Matt, I'll direct this next question to you. We've talked a lot about how helpful technology can be in mitigating risk. But if not used properly, technology can create its own risks. In fact, cybersecurity is an ever-present and ever-evolving danger to all businesses.
What are some of the unique cybersecurity risks that construction companies face? What are construction companies doing about it? And which technology tools are designed to combat the latest threats?
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Slide, Cybersecurity. A list connected to a graphic of a padlock. Text: Frequency. Subcontractors. IoT devices.
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MATT ABELES: Well, I can't highlight how important this topic is enough. And it's not the most attractive topic, but it is impacting construction in a huge way. So according to a recent report by Sophos, construction is the second most hit industry by hackers right under education.
And unfortunately, in most cases, our contractors are being reactive, not proactive. And there's a lot of reasons for this. But no one thinks they're going to get hit until they do. I can tell you, in talking to contractors, that I know of businesses that have gone completely under because of how bad those cyberattacks are.
Construction is being targeted because they have important data. But the firewalls as a whole are fairly low compared to other industries. And it is just one of those areas where you look at something like the Target hack that happened many years ago, that was a subcontractor that got attacked, that started that whole trickle effect where Target had one of the biggest cyberattacks in the last 10 years. So I think that's one of the biggest things.
The other thing to note is the idea of hacking has changed. And by that, I mean you do not need to be a super sophisticated hacker to start looking into making cyberattacks on other businesses. The tools allow for less sophisticated hackers to go out there and play that role, unfortunately. So my No. 1 recommendation is education and training, because it just takes one person to click on one wrong thing at your company to start that.
The other thing is if you have a consistent flow of education and training -- and there's a lot of these companies out there on how to prevent cyberattacks -- that's one thing I would highly, highly recommend, this being different from the software that is actually producing firewalls. But actually going to your employee base and doing that education and training is going to be key.
The other thing is when you think about technologies that are going out there -- and we've talked about some of them today -- there's a lot more IoT devices out there to help track your tools, your materials, your equipment. Almost everything on a job site will have some sort of connected technology to it.
That means that while there's many benefits, we've opened up the door for more opportunities for cybersecurity threats. So protecting that network is just more important than ever. And you need to look at all aspects of your construction business, from IT to job site connectivity.
The other thing happening is what's called CMMC, so the Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification. And what that is, is if you are bidding on federal work, there's a certain level of cybersecurity that you are going to have as a requirement to bid on that work. Now, ABC, we are making sure that it is the right level, so meaning that we're making sure that there's not an overabundance of cybersecurity needs for maybe some smaller contractors that is going to price them. And it's in place for the right ways.
So that is going to evolve more and more. And the reason that that's happening is because so many cyberattacks have happened. So my belief is that while this is happening for federal work, that those requirements will continue to trickle down to many projects that go beyond federal work in the future.
And the other thing that's really important, the last thing I'll mention on this, is cyber insurance. Cyber insurance is really important. But it's also something that you need to know what you are buying on that cyber insurance.
And I would recommend, when you're getting cyber insurance, to have someone who is a professional look at it to understand that it fits your needs, because the cyber insurance area is just evolving so quickly. And you don't want to be caught in a situation where you get attacked and your business goes under because you don't have the right insurance, you don't have the right firewalls, or you didn't give the right education and training to your company because you could be doing great work and being very profitable.
You don't want something like a cyberattack to crush your business. And ultimately, that's going to impact your life and the life of many others.
CORI MACCALLUM: Thanks, Matt. So as we wrap up, I'd like to get some final thoughts from each of you. Thad, let's start with you.
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Slide, Final Thoughts. A picture of a crane next to a multistory building.
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THAD DOYLE: Thanks again, Cori, for hosting us. So when I think of the construction industry, it is so important and critical to our economy. It really supports everything that we do, from where we live, where we work, where we play, where we shop, eat, get our healthcare, essentially how we get to and from all those locations. And quite frankly, I think a lot of us are drawn to it.
I think we're curious. We get excited, whether or not you see a stadium or a skyscraper or a new bridge going up somewhere in your town, state or geographic location. It can also be smaller. I think about parks. I think about new schools for our kids.
Maybe it's a renewable energy project going up somewhere in your neighborhood. I think we're drawn to construction, and we're excited about it. So we really see it and live it every single day in our lives.
Now, the unfortunate reality is losses and claims happen every day. The nature of this business is it's dangerous, and it's done in tough conditions and extreme conditions. So we've talked a lot about it, but the hypervigilance on safety and protection is really the key. And I would say, not all instances are going to be avoided by far. But we always strive to reduce the number and reduce the severity of losses so that we can manage such events.
So I'm personally very bullish on technology already finding its way in the industry. And I think it's going to continue. I think we're going to see more adoption over time. And I think we're going to see benefits that we can both predict and some in emerging ways that we can't fully understand and appreciate today.
And when that technology allows us to keep our employees safe and coming back, either getting home to their families at night or coming back in the morning, it's going to help you improve project quality and project delivery. I think all that supports your profitable and sustainable growth as an industry. And I really think that makes us a better place to support all the exciting things that I want to see built in my neighborhood as they're going up around us.
So I just want to thank everybody on the panel. And thanks for the opportunity to address this audience today and talk about these important emerging trends for the industry.
CORI MACCALLUM: Mark, your thoughts?
MATT ABELES: Thanks, Cori. So we are seeing a varying amount of technology implemented by our customers. This is based on the industry type that they're in, individual experiences, loss trending. It varies. We do coach our customers to explore solutions that best support their risk management programs and fit their company structure. We do caution folks that there may be some added risk to solutions.
So consider, how are you going to use the data that's collected? And having the resources to properly manage the technology is critical. Customers need to be very clear about the problem to be solved for and have a feedback mechanism and support structure for successful implementation of that technology. And in closing, I just want to thank everybody. I appreciate the opportunity, Cori, and the rest of the panelists to contribute to today's discussion.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, thanks, Mark. Matt?
MATT ABELES: Yeah, I'd like to close on -- we talked a lot about different technologies. But most of the construction business in the United States is small and midsize contractors. And we're at an interesting time where there is a construction technology overload in our industry, which is exciting. And we are seeing high-performing contractors use technology, but it's also overwhelming.
And in some cases, some companies suffer from a fear of missing out. And I can't highlight enough whether it comes to mitigating risk or being more efficient. You need to be hyperpersonal to the technology that's going to help your business be safer and be more profitable and help you to win more work.
Some things I always recommend are starting small if you're new to certain technologies, making sure you get buy-in from everyone and making sure you have technology champions. Not every company has 10 CIOs or CTOs. But technology needs to have leaders. It can't just be a decision from one individual when no one else has bought in. And I think it's important to celebrate the small wins with it.
So when it comes to all of these things, there's opportunity with technology. But I know we hit on this before, but just do the proper due diligence, make sure you have an implementation plan, and understand what your needs are. What you don't want to do is buy a bunch of technologies that sit on a shelf and aren't used and collecting dust, especially because now, technologies, they don't just cost X. Some technologies actually are a percentage of the revenue that you bring in.
So you need to be careful on all aspects of this. But make sure you're achieving ROI on those things I mentioned -- safety and profitability. And then lastly, I just want to thank everybody. I think it's a really important discussion to have today. I'm happy I could play a small role in it. And thank you all.
CORI MACCALLUM: So thank you, all three of you, so much for your insights and perspective on construction technology and risk mitigation tools.
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Slide, a picture of a laptop displaying a page on the Travelers website, with the heading New ways to address your construction risks. Text: constructioninnovation.travelers.com. To learn about innovative capabilities for contractors, visit Travelers Innovation Network for Construction. A QR code.
(SPEECH)
Before we take questions, I did want to mention Travelers Innovation Network for Construction, where we have a curated set of resources to help Travelers customers manage risk. This portal features special offers from select technologies and several resources for construction clients.
So we do have time. Let's move on to a few questions that came in through the Q&A.
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Text: Thank You.
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I believe this one could be for you, Matt.
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The slideshow disappears. The speakers appear on the video call.
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So the question is, "I could see the cost of immersive technologies being a hurdle for your smaller artisan contractors. What would be a less expensive alternative that has the same benefit of immersive safety training?"
MATT ABELES: There's multiple companies doing immersive training and upskilling. I would say the top two -- looking at companies like Transfr VR or Interplay. As far as an alternative, look, when it comes to upskilling, I don't know that there is a less expensive alternative if you're doing truly immersive upskilling.
At this point, it's one of those technologies that the reality is it's not cheap. What is cheap and affordable are the glasses have gotten cheaper. So if you're using any of the Oculus technologies, those have gotten cheaper.
But as far as the actual upskilling softwares, there's only a couple of players in there, and it's still fairly new. But there is still a hands-on component that is really important. And that is never going to go away.
But at this point, I do not see a less expensive alternative that is impactful if your goal is immersive reality. Immersive reality programs that are done the right way today are not cheap, and they're expensive. That's why there's grants. I mean, at least at ABC, we have grants to help with that kind of stuff.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, thank you. This might be for you, too, Matt, popular today. "We're at a point where the hype around AI is at a fever point. Realistically, what are the actual applications for AI on a site? And what is the timeline for those technologies? Does the introduction of this introduce more risk before it improves outcomes?"
MATT ABELES: So when I go around and I talk about artificial intelligence, I'm really just defining what artificial intelligence is to contractors. One thing I would recommend if you get a chance, we built a whole website about artificial intelligence and construction.
So if you go to abc.org/ai, it is public because we want this to be something that's educational for everyone in the industry, not just our members. And you're seeing AI usage in everything from contract review to some of the things I mentioned, large equipment being used autonomously. But where is it being used today realistically?
If you look at artificial intelligence and define what is it, it's a large set of data that's helping us make decisions. So a lot of the project management tools are using their own version of ChatGPT or taking some of the large sets of data that come from it and helping make some decisions on what you can do as far as things related to your project on data from labor, change orders. But it's just taking that big set of data and helping you make more better decisions.
As far as some of the things I mentioned, they're newer, large equipment going autonomously. I think it's going to be many years until that is going on throughout the entire country. I think you're going to see more AI applications that are coming out when it comes to safety.
The other thing that is being used on the job sites today is that technology I mentioned, where you can tell if your job site has everyone using PPE gear. That safety component is really key. I look at AI as an opportunity to make our job site safer, and that is continuing.
But AI is going to be a big driver in construction. I'm happy to see that construction is an industry of focus for artificial intelligence. We do partner with Meta on multiple fronts for artificial intelligence. We also work with Microsoft. And we're constantly looking at this stuff.
The last thing I mentioned is you really need to look at HR policies, because when we look at what are the realistic applications, everyone is using ChatGPT to help them win business and do certain things. But anything you put in ChatGPT goes into the universe. So if there's something you don't want out there, you should look into buying other solutions like what Microsoft has with Bing, where anything you put out there is still private to you. So hopefully, that answers your question.
CORI MACCALLUM: All right, I think this one is for Thad. "Thad, regarding construction defect, if a company goes out of business, how long should they potentially have a tail GL policy? Can you talk a little bit about that and how they may be held liable for past projects?"
THAD DOYLE: Yeah, Cori, happy to address that one. And so let me start with the insurance for a long tail construction defect claim will be complicated. It's not just the duration of the coverage available but terms and conditions within it. As I mentioned before, there's both traditional means and methods, like GL exposures of construction activity plus also design components. So the insurance available to manage when your construction defect claims will have some complications to it.
When I think about the tail, I think we often talk about statute limitations, statute of repose, statute of repose typically longer. Not every state has one. And in states that have them, they don't necessarily apply to all types of owners. There could be exceptions for public entities, as an example.
And then even if you have a statute of repose, I think you have to have a good understanding of when it starts and the meter runs and when it ends. And there can be notice provisions in there that may extend it or some exceptions in particular circumstances where the statute of repose may not apply.
So my advice, Cori, is anybody who's got buildings or does works in certain states understand what these issues are in your particular jurisdictions. And reach out to your insurance professionals. Start with your agents and brokers to ask these questions. They may have some resources to pull in for you to take a more detailed look.
And then to the extent you either have legal counsel available to you, whether or not it's internal or external, because these are complicated issues, I think having them weigh in on what's the best case for you to manage that from a long-term insurance perspective.
Then the last comment about a company going out of business, if you're thinking about a contractor going out of business, I don't expect them to be purchasing insurance after that. That has completed operations coverage. There could be limited circumstances where somebody succeeds another company and may take on some obligations. So I think these are all complicated topics, great question, and a lot of things to consider to get the best answer for your individual situation.
CORI MACCALLUM: Thanks, Thad. Well, I'm sorry we couldn't get to everyone's questions today, but really appreciate everyone joining us. Just as a reminder, we will be emailing this recording out to all of the attendees from today. So thank you again for joining us. Have a good one.
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